Scandi casting technique help

[TieFlier]

I recently have been doing some scandi casting with a 5wt switch rod. The rod is pretty fast action and I think it lends itself to the scandi style of casting. I have It loaded with a 310 grain rio steelhead scandi line. I have been running into a problem of my leader 'dumping' at the end of my casts. Similar to the first cast in the video below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9YlEfVV1S8

I notice it most when I am trying to bomb line out, the loop starts out quite tight then opens up and falls with the leader and fly almost vertical. I did manage to get one cast with some real distance without this happening but couldn't figure out what I did differently. I have found the same issue when using a 10ft poly leader and a 13ft tapered leader. I am wondering how to correct this as I don't like my leader piling up after a cast. Is this a problem with my technique, or is it a problem with my leader or polyleader? Any help would be appreciated.

[fredaevans]

A few things come to mind, remember 'switch rods' are not all that long so they will react a bit differently that a 'full on' 2-hander.

1) Stick with leaders in the 9 to (max) 12 foot range. A 310 grain line just doesn't have enough 'umph' to roll out a longer leader.
2) With shorter rods a more closed body cast (arm and elbows in close/tight) will help control (slowing down) the casting action.
3) A Scandi cast requires a high-firm stop at the end of the forward cast; #2 actually will 'force' this to happen and keep you from thrusting your upper hand forward. (Think 'under-hand' casting here where it's 80% bottom hand/20% upper hand.
4) I'd also recommend you 'not' do a Scandi type cast with these shorter rod, but as noted above, go to a 'under-hand' type cast.

Random thoughts here.
fae

[SalaR]

Fred is right about the length of the rod being a slight disadvantage...however,you must remember that this cast is meant to be absolutely smooth into it's transition and lay-out. Having a 13' Tapered leader attached to the polytip isn't a good idea. If you want to have some fun and practice,use a 15 -18 foot tapered leader(or longer).,with-out the polyleader attached. When using a Scandi line with polytips attached simply use a strong small diameter in lengths up to 12'. If you ever get a chance to watch "Franky"(Loop), he has mastereed the Under Hand/Scandi cast to a degree that is fun to watch. Touch and Go! The Longer leader of course really assists with the anchor.
C

[btree]

Ya, the high firm stop is key. If your loop is tight but not tailing, then the leader should lay out nicely, especially if you are using a small fly - say an unweighted, low profile spey fly one a #8 light wire steelhead hook.

If you watch Spey to Z, they start you off with overhead casting, focussing on the firm stop at 10 and 2. Then they take you to under handed casting, maintaining the same fundamentals. Finally the touch and go underhanded cast, again with the same fundamentals, but just allowing the leader and perhaps 1ft of fly line to touch the water.

If it were me, I'd find a place on the water with lots of room to practice. I'd start with underhanded casting and just make sure that the loop is relatively tight and not tailing. Once you are comfortable with the underhanded cast, move to a touch and go single spey.

With a scandi line, you should avoid water loaded casts unless your head is on the heavy side for the grain window of your rod, then you could go to skagit style water loaded casts, but it sounds like you want to really get the skandi thing down pat. Good luck, keep practicing And be careful, the road from a crashed leader to a tailing loop is a short one filled with frustration...

[fredaevans]

One other thought just ticked through my pea sized brain. In the video clip above the fellow is using a 'full on' 2-hander, not a 'switch.' That alone would make a heck of a difference in how much line (which line? grain weight? etc?) you can 'chuck.' Would be helpful if you posted the name of the builder and rod length. Knowing that, I know how/where to 'research' line recommendations.

Fred

[TieFlier]

My rod is a z-axis 5 wt 11' switch and I researched line recommendations before I purchased the set-up, but if I made a mistake in my selection let me know as it may save me some frustration. I decided to get a rio line as that was what was carried at the fly shop where I purchased the set-up. Rios website shows a range of lines they offer that can be used for many spey and switch rods. They have an 'advanced' recommendation which is usually a lighter line and a 'beginner' line which is usually heavier. For my rod Rio did not make a line light enough to fit the 'advanced' category
and only showed the options of a 4/5 AFS head (300gr) or a 310 grain steelhead scandi. I picked the 310 steelhead scandi based on its colour when I was in the store, my thinking that 10 grains of weight difference wouldn't make a huge difference. Let me know if there is another option that I could try out, I'm sure there are a few options out there.

When I first noticed the issue I was using a 10ft intermediate poly tip with about 3' of 8 lb test tippet and a small fly. I was under the impression that the poly tip may have been too heavy for the head so I switched to a 9ft 10lb tapered leader with a 3 ft section of 8lb test before a 2' section of 6lb tippet. So it doesn't sound like I was using an inordinately long leader and tippet section for the rod. I can cast a little better with the longer leader but the same issue was encountered. The video shows a 12'6" 9wt casting and I see the same issue in his cast, which is why I asked the question.

Another question I have, what is the difference between scandi casting and underhand casting? In my mind they are one and the same. I think of a scandi cast as a touch and go cast using predominately the bottom hand with a abrupt high stop. Am I off base in this description?

Thanks for your input this has been helpful.

[Finslap]

I got a demo from Frankie at the M&Y Spey Clave on the scandi stroke and 2 things really stuck out, 1. flat landing of the leader/tip on the water, it had to land smooth and flat. 2. forward stroke was a short and defined "flick" of the tip. No deep bending of the shaft as with skagit. Underhand = scandi

Check this guy out, if you haven't already seem him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AuOx9WGKj0

[TieFlier]

That video looks good but the caster is not shooting line, he is simply casting the head section only. When I only cast the head I can get nice tight loop, like the in video, with the leader landing flat. What I am looking to do is get the same turn over and flat leader lay out with a cast in the 80ft range. I can get an 80' cast without much effort but the landing of the leader is really sloppy like I mentioned above.
I'll have to keep working through the motion and see if I can correct the problem with a 'modified' casting stroke, short of that I may need to break down and get some lessons.

[btree]

Ya, it's tricky. One thing to mull over is doing some video of yourself to help with the diagnosis.

Body awareness is really strange. Unless you can really see what you are doing, it's hard to be sure that you are really doing what you think you are doing. The next time I get out on the water, I'll probably try to video myself. I know for me it's likely to be an eye opening experience, and a humbling experience. I already have a feeling that my casting stroke when trying to shoot line is different than when I'm not.

It might feel a bit embarrassing to post a video or two of yourself casting, especially if you're having troubles, but it's probably the best way.

[TieFlier]

I talked to a good caste the other day about the leader piing up at the end of my cast and I may have an explanation for what is happening. He said that it has to do with not imparting enough line speed to the scandi head. He said the shape the loop takes in the air is a good indicator of line speed and technique. A loop with high line speed should almost be sharp at the end curve of the loop, while a slower travelling loop having a smooth semi circular shape. The width of the loop is a good indicator of path of the rod tip while casting. If the loop is quite wide then the rod tip has changed elevation through the cast. This is also and indicator of stopping the stroke too far forward. I think my problem may be the forward stroke that I use. I think I put too much force into the start of the forward stroke and have a softer stop then I should have.

I am going to try to film myself next time I go out for casting practice. I don't have a great quality video camera, but we'll see how it turns out. Hopefully I get some good shots!